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Old 08-22-2007, 09:13 PM
ericmalone ericmalone is offline
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Is poker Gambling? Read on...

Greetings,
Just wondering your thoughts on this...

What is gambling?

Is poker gambling?

What makes poker a game of skill?

Does the fact that poker is a game of skill change anything?

Do tournaments have less of a "gambling factor" than cash games?

What are ways to get around poker as gambling? (to make it NOT gambling)


Thanks a lot guys, post any and all thoughts.
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:41 PM
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butrflynlambie butrflynlambie is offline
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Re: Is poker Gambling? Read on...

personal opinion

What makes poker a game of skill?
>betting aspect, everyone should have an equal chance of "winning" any individual hand.

Does the fact that poker is a game of skill change anything?
>yes, how many poker players like playing slots?

Do tournaments have less of a "gambling factor" than cash games?
>i prefer tournaments as they have less risk, to show up for cash games you need to be mentally prepared and understand your bank. I will play a $100 tournament, but not a 1-5, just not comfortable. I don't know if there really is a difference in "gambling factor" as your odds of winning still are the same.
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Old 08-22-2007, 10:08 PM
ericmalone ericmalone is offline
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Re: Is poker Gambling? Read on...

I was also wondering about freerolls... are they gambling? Are games that are promotions for persons who buy products gambling? And finally, are freezeout poker leagues where everyone pays their dues up-front gambling?

Thanks again everyone!
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Old 08-22-2007, 10:23 PM
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Re: Is poker Gambling? Read on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericmalone View Post
Greetings,
Just wondering your thoughts on this...

What is gambling?
General definition would be some event or contest where you wager money on some sort of an outcome where there is some amount of uncertainty (risk).

Quote:
Is poker gambling?
Yes, you are wagering money on the outcome of a hand.

Quote:
What makes poker a game of skill?
Slippery slope time. Ability to know important poker odds, understanding your opponent, understanding of strategy, etc. Poker is also a game of luck in the sense that cards are shuffled which creates a certain amount of randomness in the outcome. Any 2 cards can win any hand regardless of the skills of the opponents. The only argument is to what degree does skill versus luck impact the game. In any single hand, the luck factor is higher but over time, the skill factor is higher. I like to say luck determines what cards you get but skill determines what you do with them.

Quote:
Does the fact that poker is a game of skill change anything?
Change what? It changes everything and nothing depending on the question.

Quote:
Do tournaments have less of a "gambling factor" than cash games?
Not sure what the gambling factor is but I'd say tournaments have a higher luck factor to them. The reason being escalating blinds apply increased pressure to play hands. In a cash game, the blinds never increase so the cards are the only driving force to whether you play a hand or not.

Quote:
What are ways to get around poker as gambling? (to make it NOT gambling)
Convince people that the degree of skill is much more significant than the degree of luck. It is gambling though so I don't know how you are going to change that short of going back to playing with matchsticks or pretzels.
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Old 08-23-2007, 12:47 AM
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Re: Is poker Gambling? Read on...

You know what makes poker a game of skill?

1) I could play Phil Ivey heads up ten times at mixed game poker and I'd be lucky to win once or twice. I could play Phil Ivey heads up at Bingo and I would win 50% of the games on average, no matter what rituals, strategies, or superstitions I employ. Bingo is gambling. Poker is a contest of skill.

2) There are now hundreds of legitimate books on poker theory, and tons of websites. There is exactly ONE noteworthy book on amazon.com regarding how to play bingo, and I highly doubt any strategies within would stand up to analysis. Bingo is gambling, poker is a contest of skill.

Myopic judges and politicians see a "random deck of cards" and assume poker is equally random, which is a complete non sequitur. These people are either morons, or they have agendas. An online slot machine, lottery, or bingo parlor is a world apart from online ring-game and tournament poker. They whine about their budgets but insist on thwarting a legitimate source of tax revenue (both casinos and players). Let's bring Stu Ungar back from the dead to play some of these idiots at limit poker and we'll see them change their tune.
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Old 08-23-2007, 01:49 AM
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Re: Is poker Gambling? Read on...

Poker is a game of skill but each hand is still a gamble. As to changing the legal definition, that will take hard work and long to do.
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:24 AM
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bjjensen bjjensen is offline
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Re: Is poker Gambling? Read on...

To those who are willing to listen (not that many, mind you ), I often make the comparison between a professional poker player and a hedge fund manager-- both take calculated risks based upon their knowledge and estimation of the underlying mathematical probabilities of the particular transaction (whether that's your chance of making a hand and the pot odds to justify it, or something like the likelihood of spreads widenening on credit default swaps of sovereign debt, with FX derivatives to magnify profit potential based on your view of the appreciation prospects of an underlying currency), as well as an assessment of other external influences (be that the psychology of the other players or the psychology of the market).

Here are the key differences I see:

A professional poker player probably gambles in the tens of thousands, perhaps up into the millions of dollars; a hedge fund manager gambles in the tens of millions, perhaps up into the billions of dollars.

A professional poker player typically must fund his stake from his own resources; a hedge fund manager raises equity money from others, then typically leverages that stake 10X or more with additional debt.

If a professional poker player bets wrong, or the result is not as was predicted by the odds, he loses his stake, but hopefully his losses are limited to himself; if a hedge fund manager bets wrong, the market recoils, and little old ladies can lose their retirement (i.e., some of the biggest hedge fund investors are state pension funds).

Now I don't climb on this soap box to say hedge fund managers = bad/evil (despite the market turmoil and crippling losses of the last few weeks because of how so many of them bet the wrong way on sub-prime mortgages), but to illustrate that the two professions are not that fundamentally different.

Nonetheless, the same people who would look at me with scorn and derision if I were a professional poker player would probably gaze at me with wonderment and awe if I were a hedge fund manager. The barriers to entry might be vastly different, but IMHO the underlying mechanics of the position aren't so much. Success in both are based predominantly on skill, but can be significantly impacted based on the luck of the gamble that you happen to be placing at the time.

[/rant]

bjjensen
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Old 08-23-2007, 10:07 AM
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Re: Is poker Gambling? Read on...

bjjensen, great post.

I agree with dad604, that it's a game of skill but each hand involves gambling.
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