[ChipSnob]

When I read the story I had thought to myself that this sounds like the magazine was pushing the "agenda" of the "Legalized" casinos and trying to scare people from having home games. From what I read in the story I don't remember there being any rake or other types of criminal activity. It was mearly a home game with a lot of money involved. If I remember correctly I think it was around $8,000 tops in the room but a large group. All of the money was confiscated

Hearing about this always makes me sad.

[TheJollyJoker]

I posed this question to an attorney friend of mine. Here's e-mail thread (names have been removed) -

Initial Question -

I'm wondering what the state laws are for home poker games. Are they legal? What are the limits to stay within the law? Any local ordinances? etc. etc. etc.

Thanks for the info.

His reply -

As for poker at your house, if you are betting for money then it is illegal. You can bet for chips, or prizes, but not money (that is how you can have casino night fundraisers - i.e. top money winner gets a pre-determined prize). However, you can not gamble with real money (it is like the NCAA pool at work, if you bet money, it is illegal, if you do it for fun it is not illegal). Make sense?

My follow on question -

I think so. Normally what we do is a 'buy-in' of $20 for chips, play all night, and when we're done, divy the buy-in pot up according to the amount of chips everyone has. This sounds kinda border-line - what do you think?

And his reply -

That is pretty safe because it is not actually gambling money. It would be safer if you simply said whoever has the most chips gets $40, second $20, etc.. so it was more like a prize, but your way is relatively safe (if anyone ever tries to prosecute you, which is unlikely)

So, at least in the state of Kansas, it *appears* that a tournament style game is probably pretty safe. Of course, your mileage may vary. I think the best course of action, if you're really concerned, is to pony up $50 for a hour of your attorneys time, and find out for sure.

[jsmithjr732]

Interesting. I state at my tourneys that I have a "rake" of $5 for each buy-in and re-buy, but it's strictly to cover my costs of providing food, drinks (beer/soda/water) and my cost to buy/build the tables, chips, etc. Maybe I'm using the wrong term as I don't take a penny from the pot--I add on a fee to take care of my costs (and I always lose a few bucks).

What would that be considered if it's not a rake--house fee, food/drinks/material fee...?

If the fee is used to help cover my alcoholic expenses (I have a Guinness keg at the tourneys), is there any liquor law issues?

John

[VARoadstter]

Originally Posted by jsmithjr732

Interesting. I state at my tourneys that I have a "rake" of $5 for each buy-in and re-buy, but it's strictly to cover my costs of providing food, drinks (beer/soda/water) and my cost to buy/build the tables, chips, etc. Maybe I'm using the wrong term as I don't take a penny from the pot--I add on a fee to take care of my costs (and I always lose a few bucks).

What would that be considered if it's not a rake--house fee, food/drinks/material fee...?

If the fee is used to help cover my alcoholic expenses (I have a Guinness keg at the tourneys), is there any liquor law issues?

Couple of things: taking any money at all even to cover expenses likely makes your game illegal (depending on state laws)

second: if you are charging for liquor/alcohol you are breaking the law and of course there had better not be anyone underage partaking.

now, some perspective: if your game is for minimal stakes, the police have much better things to do than confiscate a couple hundered bucks. as for breaking the law, I would bet that most of us exceed the speed limit on a regular basis.

[Diablo_Rojos]

Originally Posted by VARoadstter

Couple of things: taking any money at all even to cover expenses likely makes your game illegal (depending on state laws)

second: if you are charging for liquor/alcohol you are breaking the law and of course there had better not be anyone underage partaking.

now, some perspective: if your game is for minimal stakes, the police have much better things to do than confiscate a couple hundered bucks. as for breaking the law, I would bet that most of us exceed the speed limit on a regular basis.

This is very true about the alcohol thing. In Washington you must have a liquor license to sell or distribute alcohol at a social event in a public place. For Example, my wife and I had to get one for the place we had our wedding at. It had to be posted at the door and people had to have ID to be drinking and we weren't selling any. (This also includes keggers collage kids. Get a liquor license and ID everyone and don't take the label off the kegs either. ) I'm not an attorney, but I have had experiences with this.
As far as poker is concerned it's probably best if you don't play at a game where there is a rake. If you are hosting make sure the money for food or alcohol is separated from the buy-in. Have a bucket or something that says $ for refreshments and one for the buy-in. Post prizes percentages where they can easily be seen. I would also keep a receipt of the goods you purchased for the game so if you do get busted you can show the refreshment bucket was used to cover the cost of the food and liquor licenses. Also adjust the amount for covering the food costs based on the number of expected people and how much you spent so it doesn't look like you trying to make a profit.
Just a few thoughts

[TheJollyJoker]

Originally Posted by Diablo_Rojos

This is very true about the alcohol thing. In Washington you must have a liquor license to sell or distribute alcohol at a social event in a public place. For Example, my wife and I had to get one for the place we had our wedding at. It had to be posted at the door and people had to have ID to be drinking and we weren't selling any. (This also includes keggers collage kids. Get a liquor license and ID everyone and don't take the label off the kegs either. ) I'm not an attorney, but I have had experiences with this.
As far as poker is concerned it's probably best if you don't play at a game where there is a rake. If you are hosting make sure the money for food or alcohol is separated from the buy-in. Have a bucket or something that says $ for refreshments and one for the buy-in. Post prizes percentages where they can easily be seen. I would also keep a receipt of the goods you purchased for the game so if you do get busted you can show the refreshment bucket was used to cover the cost of the food and liquor licenses. Also adjust the amount for covering the food costs based on the number of expected people and how much you spent so it doesn't look like you trying to make a profit.
Just a few thoughts

That's basically what we do. Whoever is hosting buys the beer, pizza, etc. and everyone who wants to chips in separately from the buy-in to help cover the hosts expenses. The buy-in is *NEVER* raked - everything that is collected is paid out at the end of the evening. With the group I play with, there hasn't been a problem with this approach...

TJJ

[Buzzerbeater]

In my state, the law specifically states that a person may not profit from gambling unless he is an equal participant as a player in the game, nor may he profit from any activities associated with the game including the sale of food, drink or merchandise including money to pay for equipment used in said gambling. So the easiest way I see around that is to make sure all the money that gets pitched in for food and stuff is spent or refunded. But I don't think you'll find any situation where taking money to pay for your tables, chips, cards etc., is legal.

Bob C has a list of state gambling laws on his website, pokercoach.us.

[ggold]

A couple of things.
1. Your state laws determine what is and is not legal regarding both home games and casino gambling. Just because in one state home games are technically illegal does not mean they are in another state. In Texas, for example, home games are perfectly legal as long as there is no take for the house. It gets a little more complicated, because technically, no one can make money off of gambling except for the people making the bet. So, paying a dealer is illegal. Paying someone to serve drinks is illegal. Using gambling money to pay rent is illegal. Even collecting money for pizza is technically illegal (although they could never bust you on this).

2. Federal involvement. Almost all federal power in the United States comes from the interstate commerce clause. I won't go into the details, but essentially, the federal government has the power to control ANYTHING affecting interstate commerce. This is the genesis of our environmental laws and even our civil rights laws. If you use a telephone, a computer, or mail, you are entering the realm of "interstate" and can probably be nabbed by the feds for your offense. Likewise, if you are violating any other federal law you can be nabbed. The tax example is perfect. Last thing. I don't know the tax laws, but you don't have to pay taxes on gambling winning under a certain amount, so it is almost impossible for the FBI to break up your home game for tax fraud unless you are playing BIG money.

[jsmithjr732]

Here's how it runs at my place:

1. It's at my house, friends and friends of friends only. Limited to 20 ppl.
2. $20 buy-in + $5 to cover expenses.
--$5 is separated and not included in the pot.
3. Beer is purchased by me and there is no charge for a glass--all you can have and everyone is over 21.

Maybe "donation" should be used instead of "expenses."

I think it's time to have a sticky on all 50 states and their poker laws (including a link to more info).

John

Originally Posted by VARoadstter

Couple of things: taking any money at all even to cover expenses likely makes your game illegal (depending on state laws)

second: if you are charging for liquor/alcohol you are breaking the law and of course there had better not be anyone underage partaking.

now, some perspective: if your game is for minimal stakes, the police have much better things to do than confiscate a couple hundered bucks. as for breaking the law, I would bet that most of us exceed the speed limit on a regular basis.

[ggold]

In Texas, your game is illegal (not that home games ever get busted). It would not matter whether it was called a donation or anything else. If money is taken out of the pot, it is illegal, even if that money is returned in the form of food or drink ,even if they are all friends, even if it is in your house, etc. I don't know the law for other states. They are all a bit different.

Originally Posted by jsmithjr732

Here's how it runs at my place:

1. It's at my house, friends and friends of friends only. Limited to 20 ppl.
2. $20 buy-in + $5 to cover expenses.
--$5 is separated and not included in the pot.
3. Beer is purchased by me and there is no charge for a glass--all you can have and everyone is over 21.

Maybe "donation" should be used instead of "expenses."

I think it's time to have a sticky on all 50 states and their poker laws (including a link to more info).

John