[OnTheButton]

I'd like to hear EXPERIENCES with other California players that might have consulted either an attorney or the local police department about how to collect money for hosting a poker game.

It's not that big a deal, but every week the wife and I host a low-limit ($20 buy in)NLHE poker game on Saturday nights, and usually have 7-9 guests. We often keep soda, snacks, hookahs, and even adult beverages available for those that ask nicely. We provide them mostly because if we don't, the first few hours of play are people running back and forth to the store, which for some reason they don't seem to remember to do before they come over.

I think what inspired this thread was a friend that brought a guest the other week, and he did really well, taking home about $100 in winnings. He also ate half the cookies, a couple of (small) bags of chips, about 6 beers and sodas. He stuffed the cash in his pocket, wiped the crumbs off of his face, tossed the beer bottle in the trash and hit the road with a big smile on his face. Why not? He won money and ate/drank another $10 in free food/drink. What a deal!

We do pretty decent in the games, usually making a few dollars ($30-40) between the two of us by the end of the night, but most of that goes to buying the stuff for the next weeks game. And when we lose, we still spend that money on stuff regardless.

Some of these are pretty good friends, (that we hang with outside the table) and I know they would donate money to keep the snacks and drinks flowing, but I want to make sure that the way we collect is 100% legal, without asking them for cash while in the driveway like some kind of drug dealer stuffing my pockets with cash in the shadows. We have too much to lose by skirting the gray areas, since we own the home, I own 3 businesses, and she is a school teacher that would be canned in a moment if we were even suspected of doing something illegal at home.

We are not getting "broke" by spending this money, but it seems like the more we provide the more is expected, and often some players come over empty handed and head right to the fridge and the pantry knowing there is stuff there. I don't want to be rude by calling someone out with a "What are you doing?" however it would be nice to say, "Help yourself, you paid for it."

We'd like to spend our poker winnings on fun stuff like everyone else does, instead of paying for the goodies that everyone enjoys and no one pays for. It's not like it's rent money we are spending, but it adds up every week when we spend it directly to make our guests more comfortable.

The part that kills me is that whenever I host a "party" I have no problem passing the hat around to get funds for beer, food, whatever. But since we play poker as the theme for our "parties" we seem to be stuck not only providing the house, but the costs for everything else, every week. Heck when I was in college we would MAKE you pay like $5 before you even walked in the door.

I've thought about putting an unmarked jar by the front door, and just letting people know what it is for before they even enter the house, but the lines seem pretty fuzzy to what is allowed and what could be construed as taking a rake, or trying to profit by having the players contribute to the expenses.

Any experiences (opinions not preferred, I have plenty of them, lol) with this topic are appreciated, as it would be nice to not have to dip into our pockets every week because of the way the law is stated about the house collecting funds.

[daveyboy]

I also host poker nights every so often and what happens is that sometimes we take it for granted that everyone will bring a little something. In Hawaii, we simply called bringing a little something to a party or event as "Hawaiian Style". We all know this does'nt always happen, but what I do if I need something or want someone to bring something, I just simply ask them an hour before they are to arrive "Eh, Phil, I forgot to buy some chips and dip, could you run by the store on the way to my house and get some for me". My guests are more than willing to pick up a few things to my party if I just ask. Also, none of them has ever asked me for money for picking up some food for me.

I just feel real wierd about collecting a rake from my buddies everytime we play poker.

[Wylecoyo]

According to California State Law:

Penal Code Sec. 337j

(a) It is unlawful for any person, as owner, lessee, or employee, whether for hire or not, either solely or in conjunction with others, to do any of the following without having first procured and thereafter maintained in effect all federal, state, and local licenses required by law:
(1) To deal, operate, carry on, conduct, maintain, or expose for play in this state any controlled game.
(2) To receive, directly or indirectly, any compensation or reward or any percentage or share of the revenue, for keeping, running, or carrying on any controlled game.
(3) To manufacture, distribute, or repair any gambling equipment within the boundaries of this state, or to receive, directly or indirectly, any compensation or reward for the manufacture, distribution, or repair of any gambling equipment within the boundaries of this state.

(b) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly permit any controlled game to be conducted, operated, dealt, or carried on in any house or building or other premises that he or she owns or leases, in whole or in part, if that activity is undertaken by a person who is not licensed as required by state law, or by an employee of that person.

(c) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly permit any gambling equipment to be manufactured, stored, or repaired in any house or building or other premises that the person owns or leases, in whole or in part, if that activity is undertaken by a person who is not licensed as required by state law, or by an employee of that person.

(d) Any person who violates, attempts to violate, or conspires to violate this section shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year, or by a fine of not more than five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.

(e) (1) As used in this section, "controlled game" means any game of chance, including any gambling device, played for currency, check, credit, or any other thing of value that is not prohibited and made unlawful by statute or local ordinance.

2) As used in this section, "controlled game" does not include any of the following:
(A) The game of bingo conducted pursuant to Section 326.5.
(B) Parimutuel racing on horse races regulated by the California Horse Racing Board.
(C) Any lottery game conducted by the California State Lottery.
(D) Games played with cards in private homes or residences, in which no person makes money for operating the game, except as a player.

[Wylecoyo]

The following links may be of use to you:

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/California/
http://www.gambling-law-us.com/

[Daniel]

my assumption (the key words here)
is that as long as they dont pay you from the money they made that night (i.e other peoples buyins, rebuys, etc...) then its not considered part of the 'revenue'.....

i would just have some kind of "food donation" box....
i dono if the words "donation" make it not affiliated to the game itself...but i would assume so, (once again, lots of assumptions on my part here, as im not nearly close to a lawyer, i'm a nice guy, lol)...

i like the first idea of just telling every1, "look, i usually provide the goods, but its getting costly, if everyone can just BYOBBB (bring ya own, bud brew & bitches...this is a cali thang).....

good luck senor, hope you find all your answers and that i didnt just add some nonsense...

d

[daveyboy]

I have heard of a situation here in California where a person got in trouble (with the law) for taking a rake to pay for food and drinks. Eventhough that persons intention was to only cover his cost's, the undercover cop who responded to this persons ad for more players in Craigslist (big mistake #1) turned this person in to the authorities. I'm not sure what happened in the end, but I know this person had to go to court.

[Wylecoyo]

My wife is a legal secretary here in CA, so I asked her boss to take a look at this for me. Based on her review, ANY money you receive in ANY manner other than from the pot during the course of regular, unscripted play would constitute a rack and would be illegal under the previously posted statue. Donations, gifts, or whatever kind of legalese spin you might want to put on it would not, according to a practicing lawyer, make it any better.

I have given you the law, some links to more law, and the interpretation of a lawyer - do with it what you will and good luck.

[PocketRocket]

This is more an issue of common decency than anything else and isn't really related to a 'rake' per se. Some people will just insist on taking advantage of a situation, like consuming their hosts provisioins without so much as a "thank you". It's unfortunate, but you'll run into one or two in every crowd (if you get much more, find another crowd ). It might help just to drop an extra line or two into the invitation (whether it be by e-mail or phone), "bring a snack to share" "if you're not sure of what to bring, please call for suggestions". In the cases of the moochers, it's best to let someone else (other than the host) bring the issue to light (best way is to publically shame them ). One word of caution though, if people get too enthusiastic about it, you could end up with a bunch of leftovers and beverages that weren't planning for at the end of the evening (no kidding, it's been known to happen; especially if you get half of the people stopping by Costco or someplace like that for a party tray on the way to the game ). And in the case where it's a "bunch of guys" who would get lost walking into a supermarket, all it takes is someone (preferably a guest) to suggest "contributions" to a pot (or jar) to cover the costs of snacks and beverages. If the mix is "normal" there will generally be some contributions on the generous side that will cover the moochers. (and if you forget to invite the moochers for a week or two ... they might get the message.)

[ElitePoker]

I just posted a thread about the "Show 'Em!" chips were I was going to ask for a "donation" for each chip to go towards the pizza/soda/water etc. I was informed in that thread about this issue.

http://chiptalk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12592

How about if you have regular players that you form a league and charge monthly membership fees (like $10/ea) to cover the cost of running the league/poker nights? Would that be legal?

I really enjoy hosting our games every other week but I am in the same situation. I have a fully stocked bar in my game room with a kegorator. I put up a tip jar on the bar and I usually have $40+ in it by the end of the night. As far as my expenses go, we usually go through a keg of beer ($70) half a bottle of jagermeister ($10), 10-20 cans of Red Bull ($13-$26) at every event. That's not including the soda, bottled water, and misc other liquors we go through. I estimate that it usually costs me about $100-$125 per event to cover drinks. We were only putting out snacks ($10-$15) but everyone really liked it when we ordered pizzas so everyone agreed to bring $2 to chip in for the pizza ($30-$40). No one had a problem with this and I wasn't aware there was a legal problem with it. It's not the end of the world financially but $200-$300 a month in expenses is a car payment or a nice savings toward some poker gear.

If we had a league with $10 monthly membership fees it would probably cover the food/drinks, the cost to host our website, and other poker consumeables (cards, trophys, etc.). I wouldn't be making any money but would probably limit my losses.

Sorry for the long winded post...I would really like to find a solution to this issue.

[PocketRocket]

This is where you might run into issues with the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board. Which is how kids get charged when they hold "pay parties" where an admission/cover is charged at the door. It's probably best to check not only with the local constabulary but also the ABC since there is a correlation to those funds paying for alcoholic beverages.

Originally Posted by ElitePoker

How about if you have regular players that you form a league and charge monthly membership fees (like $10/ea) to cover the cost of running the league/poker nights? Would that be legal?

I really enjoy hosting our games every other week but I am in the same situation. I have a fully stocked bar in my game room with a kegorator. I put up a tip jar on the bar and I usually have $40+ in it by the end of the night. As far as my expenses go, we usually go through a keg of beer ($70) half a bottle of jagermeister ($10), 10-20 cans of Red Bull ($13-$26) at every event. That's not including the soda, bottled water, and misc other liquors we go through. I estimate that it usually costs me about $100-$125 per event to cover drinks.