[ElitePoker]

Originally Posted by PocketRocket

This is where you might run into issues with the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board. Which is how kids get charged when they hold "pay parties" where an admission/cover is charged at the door. It's probably best to check not only with the local constabulary but also the ABC since there is a correlation to those funds paying for alcoholic beverages.

So if I said the league membership funds would cover food/soda/water and misc expenses like website hosting/trophys/cards/chips then it would be ok? I would then have to say that all drinks are free of charge...is that playing in the grey area too much?

[PocketRocket]

That, quite honestly, is a question that should be poised to your own legal counsel, your local PD, and the ABC. I'm not an attorney, and even if I were, I'd run into ethics issues with the BAR if I were to dispense legal advice on a message board. However as a guide, you can probably reference charity events where alcoholic beverages may be served gratis as may be food, merely for the "donation" that grants the admission. At those events, some sort of single event license must be obtained from the ABC.

Originally Posted by ElitePoker

So if I said the league membership funds would cover food/soda/water and misc expenses like website hosting/trophys/cards/chips then it would be ok? I would then have to say that all drinks are free of charge...is that playing in the grey area too much?

[OnTheButton]

Thanks so far for the information folks.

Glad to hear I am not alone, or being taken as greedy for not wanting to pay for everything every week, even though the cost is not an issue.

ElitePoker, you and I seem to have a very similar situation, where we "created our own monsters" by being generous and offering up our hospitality to our guests. Had we just been bastards from the onset, nothing would be expected now.

I was one of the ones that actually posted the CA gaming "legalese" put up here earlier in the thread by Wylecoyo, so I'm familiar with the exact law as stated. However "profit" is the argueable term in that code. To purchase food and beverages for distribution is an "expense" not a profit. Now if we charged directly (i.e. $1 for a soda, $3 for a beer) for those items, I could understand the complications.

But the intent of the law is to be interpreted, right?

The sound of a "league membership" with "dues" intrigues me.

Anyone have any more information on this as applied to poker groups?

There's GOT to be a way around this, since the intent is not to open a casino, but to not have to get nickled and dimed every weekend by fridge looting players.

[PocketRocket]

Okay, this is the way that it used to be done at a "social club" that used to charge an annual membership. The poker games were just the result of members getting together to play cards, it was not the purpose of the club. There were bottles of booze that sat on a table along with a glass. The customary "donation" for a cocktail was 25¢ in the glass (this was a long time ago), all on the honor system, no problems with the law. Unfortunately if your crowd is a bit too big, this might not work, not only might the moocher not pay their fair share, they might even steal the glass with the donations.

If nothing else works, bear in mind that they are not your relatives, they're "friends" and as such you can be selective about them.

Originally Posted by OnTheButton

Thanks so far for the information folks.

Glad to hear I am not alone, or being taken as greedy for not wanting to pay for everything every week, even though the cost is not an issue.

ElitePoker, you and I seem to have a very similar situation, where we "created our own monsters" by being generous and offering up our hospitality to our guests. Had we just been bastards from the onset, nothing would be expected now.

I was one of the ones that actually posted the CA gaming "legalese" put up here earlier in the thread by Wylecoyo, so I'm familiar with the exact law as stated. However "profit" is the argueable term in that code. To purchase food and beverages for distribution is an "expense" not a profit. Now if we charged directly (i.e. $1 for a soda, $3 for a beer) for those items, I could understand the complications.

But the intent of the law is to be interpreted, right?

The sound of a "league membership" with "dues" intrigues me.

Anyone have any more information on this as applied to poker groups?

There's GOT to be a way around this, since the intent is not to open a casino, but to not have to get nickled and dimed every weekend by fridge looting players.

[ElitePoker]

Yeah...my monthly tournament has gone from 8-10 players at the begining of this year to 17, 18, 21, & 23 the last four months. I anticipate close to, if not more than, 30 at our game coming up in a couple weeks.

I'm going to check in with the Police Dept & District Attorney either today or tomorrow to see what I can find out. With friends bringing friends to our games now there is more of a chance of someone saying something to the authorities. When it was only 8-10 of us life long friends playing I didn't have to worry about a thing. Our $25 buy-in tourneys have been getting close to $1,000 in prize money the past couple months and I'm sure it will be over $1,000 this month.

Originally Posted by OnTheButton

ElitePoker, you and I seem to have a very similar situation, where we "created our own monsters" by being generous and offering up our hospitality to our guests. Had we just been bastards from the onset, nothing would be expected now.

[Wylecoyo]

Originally Posted by OnTheButton

I'd like to hear EXPERIENCES with other California players that might have consulted either an attorney or the local police department about how to collect money for hosting a poker game.

I am not trying to make it appear as if I think the host should get stuck paying for everything - I was just trying to answer the question as it was asked. Based on the way the code is written and based on a CASUAL conversation with someone who happens to be a lawyer (no infringement on the BAR and no formal commissioning of legal research involved) I would caution you that there does not seem to be any legal way to "collect money for hosting a poker game."

I don't think the issue changes in relation to whether or not what you collect covers the cost of running the game and I wouldn't feel comfortable relying on the defense that as long as you don't make a profit then you are not doing anything wrong.

I am sure if you actually hired an attorney they could better advise you as to how to sidestep the statutes that are in place; however, I would be interested in knowing why you are so worried? If it is a friendly game and you know all the players are you really concerned someone is going to turn you in?

For that matter, you could always throw a pizza party and have everyone pitch in for the expenses of the food and beverages. If after the pizza party is over some of the guests want to hang out and play some friendly poker while still enjoying the leftovers, who could say you were "charging" for the actual card game?

[Tatdave]

Perhaps this wouldnt fly, but what if you sold everyone who came a lovely 'real casino weight' 11.5 gram dice chip for say, $5? I'm sure people would be willing to pay $5 for the thrill of owning a chip that has that real casino metallic sound.

Selling the chips would be independent of the poker game. You could offer to sell some of those before the game started, then get on with the evening. Sorta like a tupperware party.

This may or may not be such a gray area, but if folks are buying something from you then ya'll choose to play some cards, how's that so wrong? And wouldnt it be natural for folks who came over to buy a chip from you to want to play poker?

Just a thought

[luckychick]

My friend phoned a buddy of his who is a lawyer. I didn't talk to him myself, but sat there while he asked him, and here is the summary. He said that if you are collecting money to defray costs, it's not a big deal. To cover yourself, just keep the reciepts. Divide the total cost by the number of expected people and charge that per guest, and it's okay. He siad if you throw a party, and buy a keg, and do this, it is okay, as long as you are not making a profit, or charging per individual drink. The fact that you are playing poker is okay as long as you aren't making a profit (back to the save receipts thing). Don't skim the pots and it should be okay.

P.S. He also said the cops monitor Craig's List, and it's not surprising a cop showed up to daveyboy's acquaintance's game. This seemed to be a different situation though, if he was actually taking a rake out of the pots, regardless of the intention.

[ElitePoker]

Originally Posted by luckychick

My friend phoned a buddy of his who is a lawyer. I didn't talk to him myself, but sat there while he asked him, and here is the summary. He said that if you are collecting money to defray costs, it's not a big deal. To cover yourself, just keep the reciepts. Divide the total cost by the number of expected people and charge that per guest, and it's okay. He siad if you throw a party, and buy a keg, and do this, it is okay, as long as you are not making a profit, or charging per individual drink. The fact that you are playing poker is okay as long as you aren't making a profit (back to the save receipts thing). Don't skim the pots and it should be okay.

P.S. He also said the cops monitor Craig's List, and it's not surprising a cop showed up to daveyboy's acquaintance's game. This seemed to be a different situation though, if he was actually taking a rake out of the pots, regardless of the intention.

Very interesting...I'm sure there is several ways around this issue. I'm going to check with my local authorities that way I'm covered. Thanks for that info...that will help when it comes time to talk to them.

[dad604]

If the 7 or 8 people were close friend, there should not be an issue with collecting to pay for drinks, food, etc. Maybe the best way would be a straight charge before the game starts.


Once it gets bigger and you have more and more players, then I would say you could have a big legal problem.