[Phaetos]

At our home game this week there was an issue that we didn't know how to handle. Here is the setup: Seat 3 has K-Jos goes all in, seat 6 on the button and the dealer calls with Q-Q and has seat 3 covered. Burn card, then flop. Jack on the flop giving seat 3 a chance. Burn and then the turn card,no help. Then the river comes out with a Jack giving Seat 3 Trip Jacks. As he is raking the pot, we realize that there was no burn before the river Jack. Seat 6 was the button and dealer and didn't burn before the river. So the burn should have been the Jack.

My question is, how would a floor director hand this? Would the Jack have to then become the burn and the correct river card be dealt out, in effect removing the win from Seat 3? Or does the hand become dead due to a misdeal by the dealer and giving false hopes to Seat 3?

[poislb]

Originally Posted by Phaetos

At our home game this week there was an issue that we didn't know how to handle. Here is the setup: Seat 3 has K-Jos goes all in, seat 6 on the button and the dealer calls with Q-Q and has seat 3 covered. Burn card, then flop. Jack on the flop giving seat 3 a chance. Burn and then the turn card,no help. Then the river comes out with a Jack giving Seat 3 Trip Jacks. As he is raking the pot, we realize that there was no burn before the river Jack. Seat 6 was the button and dealer and didn't burn before the river. So the burn should have been the Jack.

My question is, how would a floor director hand this? Would the Jack have to then become the burn and the correct river card be dealt out, in effect removing the win from Seat 3? Or does the hand become dead due to a misdeal by the dealer and giving false hopes to Seat 3?

I believe they would re-shuffle, burn a card and then place out another river card.

The board is left alone...

[yeltzen]

I'm not 100% sure of how this would work in a casino, but I personally would just discard the river and replace it with the top card in the deck... assuming I was certain the dealer didn't burn a card, and I had people to back me up.

In a casino, my guess is they would put the river card back in the deck, shuffle, burn, and deal a new river. Just a guess, though.

[Phaetos]

Either way, seat 3 still loses unless a Jack comes out again. Man that's an emotional killer.

[luckychick]

From Robert's Rules:

If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. On the last round, if there was no betting because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded, provided the deck stub, boardcards, and burncards are all sufficiently intact to determine the proper replacement card.

Not clear from above, but from what I remember playing 3/6 limit that when this happened, the dealer just exposed the jack (in this example) as exposed and then dealt the river. Not that 3/6 is an example of consistent, correct rulings though.

Since the KJ player had been awarded the pot when this was discovered though, sounds like he wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiins!!!!!!

[Phaetos]

Based on what you quoted there from Robert's, since KJ was all-in before the last round, then the error would be corrected. But it also says "if the pot has not been awarded before being discovered". So that would mean that KJ would keep it anyway. Argh ... time to go talk to some floor managers at the local casinos

[OutOfCrown]

One thing you'll notice in a casino (or any professionally-dealt environment) is that the dealer keeps the burn cards separate from the muck, and clearly identifiable.

The muck is usually collected into a fairly neat pile near the dealer's right hand. The pot is in the center of the table, usually somewhat left of center of the dealer. The burn cards before flop/turn/river are placed under the chips in the pot, clearly identifiable, and clearly in order (each burn card is placed slightly offset and under the previous burn card).

If more people would do this, instead of "the muck is a random mess of cards all over the table" (I know, it's asking a lot) in their home games, there would be fewer problems like this.

I don't make my players deal that way, but I *do* deal that way when I am dealer. Some of them have noticed and started emulating.