[Mok]

Sad turn of events from an original post that was merely a "dream" from a member.

I have an idea for a set, that is from an icon of pop culture. I've done the homework, checked on trademarks and copyrights for names, and found out they've been abandoned. Even then, I doubt I'd have made any public pleas for the project, or posts for "first looks" or anything. Finding and using images from the internet for the project would be in that big "gray" area of personal use.

This is the same thing the music industry is feeling now, with all the online music stores. The RIAA is certainly sue-happy, as they're trying to make examples out of everyone they can. Some of this stems from the fact they're scared to death it is the end of them, which it will be if something creative isn't done, and soon. With music though, they have gone through the whole "protection" of it, using DRM. The RIAA isn't going after "Bob" because he downloaded a song, they're going after "Ryan" because he downloaded it, and is sharing it to the world (and lets not get into this whole DRM thing, as we all know it sucks, it kills fair-use of any kind). That is the distinction, and seems to be the heart of this Image Copyright issue - "Bob" downloads for his own use, and "Ryan" downloads and SHARES it.

So, I want to make a chipset with Corvettes (this is NOT my initial thing, just a suggestion, a COOL suggestion though, eh? lol), to play in my house with the Corvette club in my area. I'd be using their images (and certainly their cool logo). Absolutely SHOULD get permission to do so. I capitalized SHOULD, because legally and ethically that is the case. In the real world, making 500 images on chips for my own use is just fine. Having someone else make them for me, is NOT fine by the letter of the law. BUT, being NOT fine, isn't something that is going to get you into trouble. Making 3 or 4 sets and selling those to your club buddies, now THAT is a serious no-no. Taking lots of pictures, posting them as "your idea", and all around bragging how you did everything on them, also a bad idea (although, not nearly as bad as selling them). Giving them to your son, when he is also handed the keys and title to his first Vette, priceless.

Then again, just because we can do something, knowing we won't get in trouble for it, doesn't mean we should. I know I've done stuff in my life that I'm sure the statute-of-limitations isn't up yet, and I know I haven't told even my wife, she knows I've done some stuff.... And leaves it at that. We used to use the whole "it isn't illegal until you get caught" line, and while true on the surface, doesn't make it right.

I've never enjoyed the rep system, but have used it. I LOVE getting positive rep, and think I've received 1 negative rep, of course anonymous, but then in the same thread the guy owned up to it, and we continued a good dialog on the topic. Negative rep really hurts the ego, if you follow it, I know I was steamed. I know it also felt like getting punched in the gut, and if there are auto-signatures on it, we'd be seeing a LOT of retaliation posts. Maybe just put the rep system in the M2M and GB sections, only point for those areas, since we're gaging how trustworthy a member is?

As for Joe leaving as a sponsor, ugh. That just plain old blows. Is there anyone here who doesn't own something PI has made? Joe's is the very first forum I check when I come here, because he's always got some crazy sale going on. His stuff is inexpensive, no doubt, and some of it could be considered cheap, but everything is in the eye of the beholder. I KNOW what I bought from him is worth more to me PERSONALLY than what I paid for it, but may not be worth even half that much to you.

Joe's got one crazy sense of humor, and it is always kind of hard to tell when he's serious. Which, I'm sure is where some of this stemmed from and has come to a head. But, really, I can't imagine it being good for the community as a whole with him leaving as a sponsor. My guess is, he'll be sorely missed by a lot more people than he knows.

(as an aside to the whole DRM thing, Steve Jobs, even though I can't say I like the guy, has it right, DRM must go. http://news.com.com/Apples+Jobs+call...3-6156763.html )

[UW85]

Wow, how on earth did I miss this thread? I'm physically exhausted after reading 12 pages all at once but at the same time I'm glad I did so I could follow, as best as my brain could, the thoughts & flow of everyone. My emotions have run up and down like a yo-yo. Just a couple things overall.

I understand how some people in life are very passionate about one thing but could give a rip about another. Clearly many who seem upset on this thread are those that care deeply about artwork & copywrite. Yet, most of those people seem to have no problem sharing music. Make a copy of a CD for a buddy, or whomever -- sure, it's not THAT big of a deal. You cannot deny you are a hypocrite -- you simply can't have it both ways because you have no passion about the music industry.

IF you honestly believe , "Even one copywritten image cannot be used" then you must also believe "Even one song shared is wrong." How about us teachers who photocopy a great lesson here or there from a resource book that clearly states it is not to be copied -- ever done that for any of you fellow educators? Yes, really? Well then stop stomping your feet about the artwork issue. I'm tired of people who can only see what they want to see -- they refuse to open their minds and understand their is a bigger picture. Have passion about what's important to you, that's great, but you CAN be a lot less quick to throw stones at people who don't share your passion (such as copywrite law).

And as for the "f-ing" NEG rep stuff. Clearly, and I mean CRYSTAL clearly this system is not working as intended. The collective time wasted on it is insane. I believe with all my heart it had nobel beginnings but it IS broken and needs to go away. The NEG rep system does just the opposite of what I think it was intended. It stops people from posting their thoughts, it hurts many CT'ers to the core and I truly think CT would be a better place w/o it. Keep the positive rep in place -- that does nothing but good, but lose the neg.

Finally, Joe -- you da man. I totally understand where you are at mentally (well, I'm trying my best) and get why you are saying good-bye as a sponser. It is a loss for CT and one that should throw up a RED flag.

[palmimports]

Originally Posted by plagueboy

I don't like the angry joe. I don't know if you remember the thread where I got about 30 negative rep, and I agree that the rep system is pretty lame. I don't think it should be anonymous. Maybe even not have negative rep, but only positive. I've hinted that perhaps we could just hide the rep system in one's control panel, so that if it stresses one out, one can just avoid it that way instead of leaving the forum.

Anyway, I hope you change your mind and were just venting (or that you were kidding). You crack me up enough with your posts (like the columbus ship joke) that I always get the "you must spread some reputation around..." when I try to give you positive.

Your company seems to be rolling out new products all the time, and I really admire its ability to expand its market. I'm sure that you won't miss the cheapskates on here as much as they'll miss you.

THanks. Truthfully- I harbor NO ill will towards ANY member- and I am hardpressed to think of any time I left negative reputation- ? one time but I am really unsure. I am also as guilty for leaving little positive rep- primarily because i dont believe this rep system serves any good purpose.

The ability to disagree, debate, and discuss is a great asset to people-its an asset to this site- and- if for anything else- sure does make for one hell of a day from time to time!!

For some- clicking on that red box in order to say : "I'll show em "
is laughable at best.

Do we really give a rat's axs?? LOL no.

This is what makes this site so enjoyable- ive been on a few others-- theyre as dead as kelseys nuts--

Chiptalk deserves it's rightful place in history

[Oldcycles]

Boy I can't leave this site for a couple of days without the sh1t hitting the fan.
I am not going to make any comments on the copyrights issue but will make one on the rep issue since it has bugged me for so long.
Since the other thread is locked I will post my reply to this post here.
http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/512416-post48.html

quote


To the CT Mods--start making the rep visible to all--those who post positive and negative rep. My guess is, a pattern will be spotted.


The reason why this will never happen is because the mods make most of the neg rep and they gang neg rep people.
Also they can see all rep so it does not bother them like it does some of us.
They also get less rep because people know they can see who gave it to them and they are afraid to give it to them.
Things would be way different it they could not see the rep also.
I would rather vote one person on the forum to be the sole rep policeman and no one else but him be able to see neg rep if they insist on keeping it as it is.
But of course that will never happen because absolute power corrupts absolutly.

[Feen666]

Originally Posted by Oldcycles

Boy I can't leave this site for a couple of days without the sh1t hitting the fan.
I am not going to make any comments on the copyrights issue but will make one on the rep issue since it has bugged me for so long.
Since the other thread is locked I will post my reply to this post here.
http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/512416-post48.html

quote


To the CT Mods--start making the rep visible to all--those who post positive and negative rep. My guess is, a pattern will be spotted.


The reason why this will never happen is because the mods make most of the neg rep and they gang neg rep people.
Also they can see all rep so it does not bother them like it does some of us.
They also get less rep because people know they can see who gave it to them and they are afraid to give it to them.
Things would be way different it they could not see the rep also.
I would rather vote one person on the forum to be the sole rep policeman and no one else but him be able to see neg rep if they insist on keeping it as it is.
But of course that will never happen because absolute power corrupts absolutly.

One of rules of being a mod is they cannot retaliate against anyone rep wise.Do they follow that rule?only they know.

believe me....they cry just as much as the next CTer when they get hit with neg.Just not in public

[Nexttime]

Originally Posted by Oldcycles

To the CT Mods--start making the rep visible to all--those who post positive and negative rep. My guess is, a pattern will be spotted.

Alex, I'll take things that make you go hmmmm.... for 500.

Motion seconded, all in favor?

[billsrcursed]

I!!!!!

[OnTheButton]

Originally Posted by Nexttime

Alex, I'll take things that make you go hmmmm.... for 500.

Motion seconded, all in favor?

Aye!

Although I have yet to have a need to neg rep anyone but Boris, I would really like to let people that I give positive rep to, know that it was me that said, "Nice" to their post, without having to make another post to say such.

One should be responsible for their rep, good or bad. Otherwise it is like endorsing drive-by shootings, instead of old fashioned duels or jousts. There is no honor in an anonymous rep system.

[FullMonte]

Originally Posted by palmimports

Does anyone really think that a board member of Lucasfilms will walk into a meeting and say- listen- we got a problem- Palm Imports made a set of starwars chips for some member of some poker chip forum.. how ya want to handle this problem...

If I was on the board- I would say-- send him free tickets to the next movie release- it HAS to be good for business for us- probably more people will go and see the film.

Unfortunately, this is exactly what would happen...except for the "how ya want to handle this problem" part. They already know how to handle it. Lucasfilms AGGRESSIVELY protects their intellectual property. Just ask the numerous people who put up fan web sites, who made no money, who simply tried to promote the films.....and who all received cease and decist letters from Lucas' Legal Department.

The problem with copyright infringement is that if a company knows about someone who violates their copyright, and they do nothing...the *could* lose the right to pursue action against others who do it.

[palmimports]

Originally Posted by FullMonte

Unfortunately, this is exactly what would happen...except for the "how ya want to handle this problem" part. They already know how to handle it. Lucasfilms AGGRESSIVELY protects their intellectual property. Just ask the numerous people who put up fan web sites, who made no money, who simply tried to promote the films.....and who all received cease and decist letters from Lucas' Legal Department.

The problem with copyright infringement is that if a company knows about someone who violates their copyright, and they do nothing...the *could* lose the right to pursue action against others who do it.

At a certain level this is true- for the corporations that have a legal dept they spit out cease and desist letters and hope the problem goes away. Usually it does.

One could argue the kid that buys a starwars sticker and slaps it on mom's car has no right to do that-when you purchase a product image you have no automatic rights of full conveyance whereby you can post it on a website or publically display it- but who in their right mind gets this deep into it.

I think the main point was- alot of people with printers are making labels for their poker chips. It's TECHNICALLY wrong but done every day- ya aint gonna stop it.

The line we see is when it's done to make a profit- I'm not talking about me covering my vinyl and ink costs to print 300 chips for a CT member- were talking taking copyright artwork and making and selling starwars chips.
There IS a difference whilst not in the legal sense- legally it's wrong-we all agree to this-

If my good friend wants me to print a few corvette images for his dice poker chips- I am going to. If he says- I THINK these would sell well at the local car shows- can ya make me 25 sets- this aint gonna happen.

Thats the line WE draw- right-wrong- legal- illegal- I dont really care.
I suffer the consequences if it becomes an issue. Same here- I suffer if what I do is a problem.

Whether Chiptalk as a site condones this- accepts it as life- doesnt like it but tolerates it- or totally disagrees and puts an end to it- thats the site's problem.

In the meantime- were getting signed releases and consent forms- anyone who has work on file with us has already receeved this- this is the best WE can do.

Amen
( where's my daum xanax when i need it most!)