[tmpa2001]

So i have a question for all you "anti-copying" foks.

Do you download MP3s, Vids and/or software from P2P networks?

ps. I did when i was in college, but have not logged in to a P2P network in over 2 yrs.

[mizuchaud]

Let's rephrase this another way:

Remakes in movies. A prime example would be Scorsese's "The Departed" vs. the original HK movie "Infernal Affairs".
I chose not to watch it because it bothered me that one of my favorite HK movies was 'reinterpreted' for a wider US audience. (Heck it may win an Oscar).
I enjoyed the original. Didn't feel the need to watch the remake. I hope Scorsese compensated the original filmmakers.....

Another example: "Point of No Return" remake of "La Femme Nikita". If anyone has suffered through the former knows, what a waste of time and money.

It seems to boil down to this for me: if you can, celebrate originality by creating something new. Support the original piece if you can.
The tendency towards remakes in this instance is driven purely by money and laziness. You take a movie with a limited audience and widen the target audience.

With tribute chips, the work already has been done because your target audience has already seen the product. It sells itself.

With original pieces, like in the Protege competition, the Suicide King GB or KC GB, there is a ton of work that has to be done to generate enough market buy-in to allow such a thing to actually move forward.

Sounds like I am bashing the tributes, but it's more like recognizing that there are two business models we need to decide between (or at least call attention to.)

I just hope we can find a way to value the work done to make something original come to light.

I would like to see some sort of recognition of originality, that's all.

[BPTDirector]

Originally Posted by TimmyP

CLONE COPY OR TRIBUTE?

I consider this all to mean the same thing.
You see a chip in a Tournament or Movie, or at a Casino or Card Room that you like; And know that it will never be made available to you, so you attempt to replicate it.
I have no real problem with this.

I think we all take elements from other chips and incorporate them into our ‘Original Creations’.

There is a line that is crossed, and sometime it is only perception of that.
When a fellow Chip Talk member plagiarizes almost wholesale an idea of a fellow chip talker that crosses the line.

Perception of Plagiarizing:
Fantasy Card rooms, poker tours and Casinos names are a prime example.
If you have a variation or a name you think is novel.
Example: ‘Basement Poker Tour’
And a week later, ‘The Garage Poker Tour’ shows up on new proposed chip? Cute new original twist on a name or a thinly veiled rip off?
The Sands, The Dunes, or Desert Inn? Which came first?

If the same person just cuts and pastes his name or home town over one my chip well that is just simple plagiarizing.

I try to do truly original things when I make my chip designs. I put a lot of thought into what I do. There is a theme or feeling I am trying to provoke. Be it Humorous, Hard Core Poker or attempting to take you to another place or time, I want it to be an original not just a knock off something else. (To me the almost wholesale ‘Palms’ rip-offs to me are just a waste of time and talent.) If I were to see an absolute rip-off of what I created and it appeared on this web page I would absolutely flame.

Plagiarizing like is like the old legal arguments about, “Porn Vs Art, ‘You may not be able to define porn, but you will know it when you see it.’

While I agree with most of your post - the naming thing isn't always a steal - for instance - I have had Basement Poker Tour on my custom Chipco's for 3 years now, and have been a member here with one of my chips as my avatar for 2 years, but never once did I try to dissuade you from using that on your own design. Why? Because mine was originally plagiarized from World Poker Tour if you look at it that way - as was your's probably.

What I disagree with is people changing only part of a well known name, i.e. World Stars of Poker instead of World Series of Poker - although I like the chips a ton - I would never get them because that name, and the fact that the chip colors themselves, were both taken from an existing design.

All that said, there's nothing that's original as a whole anymore, for instance, it can be argued that there hasn't been a single piece of original music written in the last century - only mish-mashes of old music put together to make a slightly different tune. Same with chips - we are limited by manufacturer color charts, edge spot options, etc.....so it's in the nature of things that since there are only a few combinations available that some chips will look alike in different sets. However, if you were to combine a similar name or theme, with chips that were very similar I'd have a problem with it.

Long winded - many valid points made on both sides of this argument - but had to address this one since both our chipsets share the same name.

BPT

[JT-Bird]

Originally Posted by mizuchaud

there are two business models we need to decide between (or at least call attention to.)

I vote "call attention to". Why do we need to DECIDE between two models? Just because someone or some group doesn't LIKE something, should we effectively CENSOR discussions surrounding it??

I thought that internet forums like this were built on the premise that people with disparate but similar tastes and interests can discuss them and share ideas in an open forum and build a sense of community without censorship. There does not need to be a connection between ALL members of the community, just ones that share similar interests. If someone is doing something illegal, don't support it, but don't try to legislate ethics.

C'mon people at the end of the day we are talking about POKER CHIPS.

Let Freedom Reign.


-- Proud Owner:

[TheMightyJim2k]

i guess I should stop reading this thread because you guys take this a lot more seriously than I do.

In the end I kind of agree with JT. I know this sounds like blasphemy, but...

They're just poker chips.

I like em. I've got way more than I'll ever use. I purchased 4 sets since joining chip talk. I've oooohed and aaaahed over all of the amazing sets and desings, but I don't take them that seriously.

If people want to have some WSOP looking chips in their homegames, and a bunch of people like the idea what is the big deal with designing them and using CT and a medium for the discussion and collective effort.

If you don't like it or are against copy-cat designs then don't buy any. no big deal. I guess I kind of look at this the same way I look at a lot of things in life. If you don't like it then don't participate, but we should not go around making heavy-handed decrees of ethics. let people decide for themselves what they like.

but then again I'm a libertarian.........

[Chiproll]

I certainly haven't read all the posts here but would like to chime in anyways.

I think original designs posted by members of this forum should not be copied. But copying designs of chips that are not otherwise made availbale to the public doesnt bother me at all. Some chips arent truly made available to the public at all (i.e. Bellagio and WSOP trouney set comes to mind).

Furthermore, several of the major companies made Vineyard commems. so i see no reason why it should be wrong for an individual to do what is already being done by the bigs.

However, copying a members personal design (posted here, elsewhere or whatever) or a currently in production line (i.e. Samurais) is inexcusable to me and is completely unacceptable to me.

Finally, in response mostly to Snowstorm, who's work i greatly admire, I could never afford a playable set of actual Venetian "poker room" chips. And even if I could, I would not be able to actually aquire chips that a) were a matching set and b) appropriate for the stakes i wished to play. So to me, some copycats are a legitimate service to consumers and the community who wishes to have said chip design.

[STANK1000]

i'm a little confused now...

should i be proud or embarassed that three of my designs have been mentioned in this thread?



being guilty of copying with my condado beach ceramic design, i'd say i'm kind of in the middle.

i do feel now that maybe i shouldn't have copied the original inlay and colors of the condados so closely, but also feel that since they are made on ceramics, they would not take away from the value of the originals.

as for my Montecito GB design, i don't feel they should be frowned upon since it is a fantasy casino and the entire design is original (obviously it uses the same name and a likeness of the hotel, but it looks nothing like the chips on the show.)

[palmimports]

someone summed up this whole thing nicely...
" theyre only poker chips"
You can go buy a printer, labels, make anything to your hearts content- put em on ebay- get caught- get yelled at- get sued-not get caught- not get sued...

You can find sites to swap music files- swap software- this is the world we live in.

If we dont knock off a casino chip- then let the designs flow.
Ive totally rethinked my position on this now- after looking at my 350.00 Swiss replica Rolex, my Bellagio tribute poker chips ( we REALLY did pay tribute to a great chip- and probably inadvertantly sent alot of people to that casino)


( tomorrow I will have a whole new perspective on this thread- stay tuned)

[TimmyP]

While I agree with most of your post - the naming thing isn't always a steal - for instance - I have had Basement Poker Tour on my custom Chipco's for 3 years now, and have been a member here with one of my chips as my avatar for 2 years, but never once did I try to dissuade you from using that on your own design. Why? Because mine was originally plagiarized from World Poker Tour if you look at it that way - as was your's probably.

First I just have to say I never read/saw your avitar in my short time on this web site, and I thought 'Basement Poker Tour' was an original little twist. Wrong! Thats the word thing.
Write a spy novel and and they ask, Like James Bond right?

But I totaly agree with what you said in your post.

[BPTDirector]

Originally Posted by TimmyP

First I just have to say I never read/saw your avitar in my short time on this web site, and I thought 'Basement Poker Tour' was an original little twist. Wrong! Thats the word thing.
Write a spy novel and and they ask, Like James Bond right?

But I totaly agree with what you said in your post.

I have never intended to 'own' that name - and never will. I have been around long enough to know that there isn't an original idea in my head that hasn't been influenced by other factors.... So, there is absolutely no offense taken to you using that name - none, nada, zero, the rights aren't even mine to give or take away. However, if you had used that name, and my chip design elements to the point of confusing our two chip sets, then I would have been upset and would have posted as such but still would have had no legal recourse. You did not offend, and I am not offended - no harm no foul. Basically, since I have taken no time to 'protect' anything that's on my chips it's all fair game anyway - and as some have said which surprised me "They're only Poker Chips"....

Likewise, the Garage Poker Tour name in my opinion belongs to Captain All-in because he has been using that for well over two years, and did not come up with that idea after viewing your designs so you may have offended him but,,,,Again, ANYTHING Poker Tour is going to look the same - and World Poker Tour was probably the first as far as I'm concerned but really liked the twist it gave my game, yours also, and any other game named '_______ Poker Tour' on a custom chip, just fill in the blank on some customs with proper artwork would look good.

Mimicked designs are not bad, accidentally or purposefully copied or reused names are not bad as long as copyrights are not violated, all chips are GOOD!!!! I have always loved looking at all the chips here, whether they were tributes, copies, original designs, etc.....the only regret I've always had is not having enough money to buy 1000 piece sets of all designs presented. Sometimes we all take ourselves much too seriously, myself included.

BPT