[shanghai_sparky]

Originally Posted by Strange

I'm not sure I understand this point of view. In theory, there would be little difference between me copying the Bellagio chip, or copying the samurais. I'd guess that if I tried to get a samurai copy and succeeded, i wouldn't be welcome to set up shop here in order to sell it.

Sorry for the ambiguity. What I think I am trying to say is respect someone's hard work. If you want home chips like Bellagio's then I can't or won't try to stop you.
If you are going to try to mass produce and sell some chips that have the esence of another person's work WITHOUT PERMISSION, then we have a problem.

[Wedge Rock]

Me and my Nevada Jack Condado Beach replicas, Palm Imports Bellagios and ABC vintage WSOP sample set concur.

[smoore]

Originally Posted by shanghai_sparky

Sorry for the ambiguity. What I think I am trying to say is respect someone's hard work. If you want home chips like Bellagio's then I can't or won't try to stop you.
If you are going to try to mass produce and sell some chips that have the esence of another person's work WITHOUT PERMISSION, then we have a problem.

This is the crux of this problem. Where is the line drawn?

1 - Everything all original
2 - "Well, I liked this chip and that chip and those over there"
3 - "Inspired"
4 - "Pushing it" -- the "three elements" copyright thing
5 - direct ripoff (see: ebay.com)

I'm sure there are many intermediate points, those are just ones that came from the top of my head.

[AlbinoDragon]

This is an animated and very interesting discussion.

Before I got too deep in reading, I voted "no to copy cats", but as I got deeper in, my thinking changed a little.

I think there is a place for those designs that are heavily inspired by other, already existing designs. If they are the design of a casino (Bellagio, WSOP), they do have a follwing and a place. I think, one way or another, a clear disctinction between the "original" and the "copy" should be made. Matt's WSOP replicas are astounding in the likeness to the real thing. Personally, I think they are too astounding. Not that anyone here would try to take a handful in to the tourney and pass them off, but there is little stopping someone from doing that. They are just too close for my personal comfort. Clones, copies, inspirations should have sufficient dictinction from the original where this shouldn't be able to happen. It's not a matter of copyright law, it's just a matter of ethics... personal ethics. Could you sleep at night knowing what might happen with the design you had produced that led to unethical behavior by another (wether you had a direct involvement or not).

Really what Ten's C5 idea comes to has nothing to do with the ethical debate or personal preference. I think it comes more to inspiring originality among the membership. You get a brilliant idea and either by your own hand or with detailed discussion and work with one of the many talented designers here and input from the group have that idea come to fruition in the form of a completely original design that hasn't been seen before.

I would suggest we create a new discussion section under "custom chips" which is for discussion pretaining to completely original designs (call it C5 design discussion as an example) and a separate gallery for images of the finished unique designs. Galleries and design discussion for "inspired by" designs could also follow the same theme. The idea is someone interested in a completely unique design can go to the section for that. I know I sifted a lot through the galleries to get inspiration, a feeling of what had been done before and a feeling for what color combos work and don't and felt bogged down by many of the pics of people's group buys which, with the exception of the inlay, were essentially no different.

In short, we shouldn't actively discourage "_____ inspired" or "_____ clone" chips, just give them their own home as some people love them and some aren't nuts about them. Don't, with any C5 "membership" or the like, say "don't do this" or "we don't approve", but set forward some kind "standards of ethics" that you at least hope would be adhered to. They shouldn't be (and probably can't be) enforced, but people should think before they act.

I have to go do some research on my inlay design now... just to see if I'm treading an ethical line or not....

[noelsarchs]

Why do I feel guilty every time this subject comes up?

I did not do an Ahopen for sure.....but I made a set of chips that is as close to the original as conceivably possible right down to the same manufacturer making the chips on the same mold.

However, the big difference was that I had permission via that manufacturer as long as I made a number of very specifically noted changes.

The other thing I did was to make a chip that had no prior record of use for the most part as an add on denomination to the existing denominations.

What's really funny about my chips is that I could have sold thousands of them but have not done so as they were made to be add on's to my original chips. Once I sell out of my last 2 full sets of those chips, the only people that I'll allow to buy more of the clones are those who buy the originals.

[Gaming Ore]

Ten, I applaud your BOLD move!

As you, and many others know, there is also an other element (or two) with regard to the copy-cat issue that has had very little mention here. I am refering to the havoc these chips present to the "traditional" chip collecting community and how they often play into the ignorance and often times, overt deceit, of sellers on the many on-line auction sites.

Most notably eBay, but there are others as well. All too often we see, what are often called fantasy chips being offered up as real casino chips or actual casinos chips simply because they have the word "casino" on them, or "Las Vegas" or the name of an actual (past or present) casino.

Now this is not to say that ChipTalk is where these bogus chips are coming from, but one of the best predicters of the future is what has happened in the past.

As collectors, we know that chips sets, even in small quantities, like custom made, home sets, all to often appear in the marketplace many, many years after they were orignally delivered to the buyer.

We also know that many, bulk quantity chips from years gone by also surface in the marketplace and many sellers could careless about true origin and are happy to present an untrue description.

The concern here is that copy-cat chips will re-enter the collector marketplace in the guise of genuine chips. Accordingly, the collecting community would just as soon like for these chips to not exist. At the present time, casino issued chips and tokens are not within the perview of the Hobby Protection Act, but there hopes that this will change. And in the interim, or ensuing time that chips are made, we would hope that the participants in chip manufacture and creation refrain from copy-cat practices and/or chips that unscrupulous others will use to defraud potential buyers.

I plan to add more to this discussion later.

Jim Follis
aka: Gaming Ore
CC&GTCC Life Member 3872-53

[JT-Bird]

I have refrained from commenting on this thread all day, and I am still going to try to keep it short. I don't really understand the big deal here. The fact is, this site is Chiptalk, not ChipCollectorTalk or CustomChipTalk.

This site should be open to the discussion of any and all chips that people have interest in buying, selling, creating and developing.. jointly or individually.

I know 100 times more about chips now than I did one year ago this week when I joined. The fact is however, what got me to this site and what kept me interested before my complete addiction was the 2005 Chipco WSOP replica group buy.

As far as I can tell, Replica Chips are - and always have been - a big part of this community. Just take a look around. If you don't like it, change the channel. In fact, if we created a "replica chip" discussion forum, then anyone who hated them would never have to look at them.

People who have "Chip Envy" for chips that cannot be purchased commercially and are interested in creating something reasonably close to their look and feel, should have the same freedom of expression as the artisans creating fresh new designs.

- Creator of Custom "Poker AllStars" Chips and "Binons Tributes" Chips
- Huge Fan of Chipco and Matsui WSOP Replicas, Coconut Beach BCC's and countless other chips that may cross the "line"

[billsrcursed]

So I guess I can't be a part of the "club" because I own WSOP replicas


I'm just not understanding why, if we're strictly talking ethics, a majority of you would care either way if I buy WSOP replicas?? Some posts are coming off as almost snobbish. I may not collect chips the way some would want me to, but I believe it's my choice as to what chips I like. Trust me, if there were a way for me to purchase a playable set of Bud Jones WSOP chips, I'd be on it. That's not gonna happen, so these were the next best thing. God, I feel like I did something dirty, and this is not why I am here, to feel like I somehow cheated. I simply have an interest in ALL poker chips, replicas and originals alike.

And for the record, Mr. Chips did a fantastic job on these chips, asked for feedback, opinions, suggestions, and put out a product that A LOT of people ended up buying. There must have been a market for these chips, because they sold. I don't recall seeing anyone who was opposed to this chip post anything in the group discussion thread saying so. I guess my bottom line is this; if you're against a replica chip, then simply don't buy it. We don't want our government getting involved in ethical issues (abortion), why should that not apply here?? I think like all other ethical topics, there's no right or wrong, just opinion.

Either way, I still think this site is the nuts, and I've not met a bad person here yet. I think all of you are great!!

[billsrcursed]

Well said, JT

[Feen666]

Originally Posted by kmalsom

Or what about taking the Belagio inlay, a fade around the outside, a big stylish M faded into the background in the center, My name along the top, Aurora Colorado on the bottom and a denom in the center? is that too close of a copy?

yes it is!