[campcleavage]

Like TRIPOD, I spent hours last night inspecting each chip and spinning them on a flat surface. I have gone through 2 colors already and both gave me 10% worth of spinners.

I know this doesn't matter to the 99% of people out there but when you stack, the spinners will cause issues. I put one spinner in a normal stack of 20 and it constantly shifted or moved. To me, at 1.25 a chip, this is a defect. I just don't understand why all these other people received, to me, a lot of extra chips.

SHould I care and send them back or just live with it?? Will it bother others like it does me??

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by campcleavage

Like TRIPOD, I spent hours last night inspecting each chip and spinning them on a flat surface. I have gone through 2 colors already and both gave me 10% worth of spinners.

I know this doesn't matter to the 99% of people out there but when you stack, the spinners will cause issues. I put one spinner in a normal stack of 20 and it constantly shifted or moved. To me, at 1.25 a chip, this is a defect. I just don't understand why all these other people received, to me, a lot of extra chips.

SHould I care and send them back or just live with it?? Will it bother others like it does me??

I received over 100 extra chips and Im still short of non-defect chips by over 200.

[ThorCavalier]

It seems like PCOL is in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't position." I personally think that sending the extras up front to cover the problem chips is a good policy, and clearly they thought so for a long time. But if people are sending back the extras and wanting them replaced, then that is pure loss for them, so I can understand why they would stop sending the extras. If someone orders say 100 chips and they receive 110 and find 13 defects, if you ask me they are only entitled to having 3 replaced. If that person sends back 13 wanting them all to be replaced then that is a problem. I am assuming this is what was happening, so I think they did what they had to do. Another problem is that I don't think they kept records of exactly how many extras were being sent out, so they couldn't refuse to redo all of the returned chips. I can imagine that this was creating loss for them. The only solution that I can see, other than what they have done, is to keep records of exactly how many chips get sent out for each order and have a contractual agreement that they are only responsible for fixing problem chips over and above the number of extras sent. That sounds like a lot for them to keep track of, so doing what they have done does seem like the easiest way of insuring that they are only redoing chips that were paid for in the first place.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by ThorCavalier

It seems like PCOL is in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't position." I personally think that sending the extras up front to cover the problem chips is a good policy, and clearly they thought so for a long time. But if people are sending back the extras and wanting them replaced, then that is pure loss for them, so I can understand why they would stop sending the extras. If someone orders say 100 chips and they receive 110 and find 13 defects, if you ask me they are only entitled to having 3 replaced. If that person sends back 13 wanting them all to be replaced then that is a problem.

Who is doing that? My order even with the "extras" still isnt complete with non-defective chips. It seems that you and ASM keep assuming the opposite. Cathy sounds like Im trying to get her to replace all the chips that I sent her, Im only asking to have my order complete. Is that so wrong?

[MacGrad]

Originally Posted by Deuce

If they spin they dont stack right, the reason casinos dont care is because most of there chips normally dont get stacked.

I'd disagree -- I see a lot of players stacking their chips at casinos, usually in towers of 20-25, depending on denomination and the levels they're playing.

Granted, most people aren't trying to make huge towers, which is probably when spinners come into play -- although it does sound like campcleavage has got a few severely warped chips if he's having problems with towers of 20; however, even with the original American Beauties (and we all know how that production run was with spinning chips), I was able to consistently make stacks of 25+ chips.

Furthermore, Jimb has already stated that "spinners" are not defects, and I'd have to agree -- the fact that a chip is slightly cupped doesn't mean it can't be used in a game. We're getting "individually-crafted" pieces, manufactured using machines that are over 50 years old in some cases, from materials that inherently have a "warp factor" in their nature. I know it's tough, but we have to realize that ChipTalk does not make up a significant percentage of orders for ASM (easily proven if we compared invoice numbers, and order sizes).

I agree with the poster who said that we're probably slitting our own throats when it comes to future potential spot offerings -- if we're complaining about "defects that aren't", as well as "not getting extra chips", then why would Jim, Cathy, and Glenda even consider offering spots that require a more intensive process?

[noelsarchs]

I'm going to chime in here with a few observations:

1. Spinning a chip on a dead flat glassy type surface is far different than a piece of felt.

2. After a chip is used a few times, shuffled and splashed around the pot, I'd bet they wear enough to lose a bit of the edges as well as some of the spinning. Clay wears with use.

3. Knowing how a chip is made, imagine for a moment what it would take to remake 10 chips for someone. Each chip is made by hand. First a vat of clay is mixed with the right base ingredients, then it is rolled into strips of clay where it's sent to Canada. This product is still fairly wet, then somehow gets punched into a circle with holes for each edge spot.

Then these girls in Canada take tiny pieces of colored clay spots, and stick them into the slug, one by one. Then these things get sent back to the USA and go through final finishing, which includes compressing these wet pieces of clay under 10,000 pounds of pressure, most likely autoclaved to have the ingrediedients chemically bind together, etc.

So if someone is unhappy with say 10 or even 100 chips that have not even been subjected to wear and use, then ASM has to make up a brand new batch of clay and start the process all over one chip at a time.

I have over 10,000 ASM chips in my hands. I have nearly 4,000 custom ASM's through the group buy and the extras I received more than covered the number of inlays that were not completely textured. I have not ONE SINGLE spinner in my entire stock of 14,000 ASM chips.

Less than one year ago, no one has ever been able to get a custom spot chip done and there are hundreds of people here who have a new set of chips. And a few who are not happy.

But I'll bet that the vast majority of us are extremely happy with everything ASM has done to date.

[campcleavage]

Originally Posted by noelsarchs

I'm going to chime in here with a few observations:

1. Spinning a chip on a dead flat glassy type surface is far different than a piece of felt.

2. After a chip is used a few times, shuffled and splashed around the pot, I'd bet they wear enough to lose a bit of the edges as well as some of the spinning. Clay wears with use.

3. Knowing how a chip is made, imagine for a moment what it would take to remake 10 chips for someone. Each chip is made by hand. First a vat of clay is mixed with the right base ingredients, then it is rolled into strips of clay where it's sent to Canada. This product is still fairly wet, then somehow gets punched into a circle with holes for each edge spot.

Then these girls in Canada take tiny pieces of colored clay spots, and stick them into the slug, one by one. Then these things get sent back to the USA and go through final finishing, which includes compressing these wet pieces of clay under 10,000 pounds of pressure, most likely autoclaved to have the ingrediedients chemically bind together, etc.

So if someone is unhappy with say 10 or even 100 chips that have not even been subjected to wear and use, then ASM has to make up a brand new batch of clay and start the process all over one chip at a time.

I have over 10,000 ASM chips in my hands. I have nearly 4,000 custom ASM's through the group buy and the extras I received more than covered the number of inlays that were not completely textured. I have not ONE SINGLE spinner in my entire stock of 14,000 ASM chips.

Less than one year ago, no one has ever been able to get a custom spot chip done and there are hundreds of people here who have a new set of chips. And a few who are not happy.

But I'll bet that the vast majority of us are extremely happy with everything ASM has done to date.

I am VERY HAPPY with my chips (just wish I would have done DG yellow as a base for my $1k and chosen a couple different edgespot colors on the others) and with the PHONE service. But, what I am questioning is how they STOPPED sending extras right before the most recent batches were sent out (mine included). Is it wrong of me to ask why I didn't receive them while customers 1 or 2 weeks ago received in upwards of 10% extra? ?

Should I just forget about the spinners? Maybe I could use that TERRIFIC thread that was posted the other day on how to repair spinners on your own. Somehow, I think I would F#@# those chips up.

[ThorCavalier]

Originally Posted by Deuce

Who is doing that? My order even with the "extras" still isnt complete with non-defective chips. It seems that you and ASM keep assuming the opposite. Cathy sounds like Im trying to get her to replace all the chips that I sent her, Im only asking to have my order complete. Is that so wrong?

I'm not sure who -- if anyone -- is doing that, and I certainly am not accusing you of doing that. If you read my post then you should see that no I don't think it is wrong to want a complete order. Everyone is entitled to what they paid for, I'm just saying that we aren't entitled to anything beyond what we paid for. And based on what someone reported Cathy as saying, it sounds like that was what was happening. My point was only that they clearly felt that they were losing money and that they were justified in making the change in policy. Believe me, I'm not exactly happy about the change, but when I look at from their perspective it is probably the best move to cut losses.

[tripod22]

I'm sorry I didn't make this clear. The information I posted earlier was directly from an email I received from ASM today (8/29/06). I think if you read through the most recent posts in this thread all of your points are addressed.

Originally Posted by pkf655

JM maybe you or the mods can talk to asm and see what they say. Why are they not including "extras?" Are they not concerned about spinners, and if they are maybe they should state that they do not want to take spinners back, let us know upfront then we will not send them back. I would like jimb to weight in, but I have no pull with him and I think it would be good for him to stop the spread of these rumor and see our concerns.

Just an idea, that I would like someone with pull to talk to ASM as I know we buy a lot of chips from them.

[JM]

OK, I've seen you say this several times now and I just can't hold my tongue anymore. 1) its not their policy to give extras, it was a GIFT 2) you're not entitled to extras 3) you didn't PAY for extras. So WHY should they give you something for nothing simply because they did this with some others in the past as a courtesy that was then abused?

Sorry if that comes across mean or whatever, but you're complaining about not getting something for nothing.

Originally Posted by campcleavage

I am VERY HAPPY with my chips (just wish I would have done DG yellow as a base for my $1k and chosen a couple different edgespot colors on the others) and with the PHONE service. But, what I am questioning is how they STOPPED sending extras right before the most recent batches were sent out (mine included). Is it wrong of me to ask why I didn't receive them while customers 1 or 2 weeks ago received in upwards of 10% extra? ?

Should I just forget about the spinners? Maybe I could use that TERRIFIC thread that was posted the other day on how to repair spinners on your own. Somehow, I think I would F#@# those chips up.