[ky70]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

ky:
while all you say is true, i'm stil not sure i get why you'd be against rebuys. you've only explained why you aren't for them in the same way i am.

Originally Posted by ky70

...but the bottom line for me is that freezeouts promote better play...and I'm more interested in playing in a game with better play than I am in building the pot.

Originally Posted by jojobinks

you don't play for money, you say. you play for the comraderie. that's another reason to allow rebuys. it's not all that fun for guys that bust out in an hour and then wait 3 hours for the next one to start.

Originally Posted by ky70

...I prefer to have a side table/game for the players that bust out and our tourney games don't generally last over 2 hours and we play between 3 - 5 tourney games on poker night. if it's only 1 big game for the entire night, I completely understand the need for rebuys.

Sometimes I enjoy talking poker more than actually playing. My apologies to Mr. Meaner for contributing to the threadjack. Since the topic is on fire, I will post a poll and thread in the "Home Games" forum

[vrecksler]

I also only play with friends, and when I first started hosting our monthly game it was a freezeout format and it worked well. Even guys that busted early would stick around and deal, or just hang out and chat. But a few months went by and people no longer stuck around, so the game was losing it's allure.

By allowing re-buy's the people that bust out early can stick around and keep playing, I mean we only get together once a month so everyone looks forward to it so it sucks to be done in the first half hour. And while I was a little apprehensive at first, thinking it is an advantage for the re-buys, it has not worked that way. No one who has re-bought has EVER won, and only once has a re-buy made it to the final table.

So from my experience the re-buy spices up the pot for the eventual champ, and keeps the atmosphere light between friends.

[vrecksler]

Double-post, sorry. It kept saying error and debug, so I tried a couple times before actually checking.

[vrecksler]

Another one? Ooh my...

[Q10 soooted]

Originally Posted by PhilTheThrill14

Rebuys hurt your chances of winning no matter how good you are. In a sense, it increases the number of people (same people, mutliple entries) that are in the tournament. More people, less odds of winning. The question would be if the increase in payout can overcome the decreased chances of winning.

Do you have a better chance of cashing in a tournament with 30 people or 60 people (assume same # of spots paid)? That's simple - 30 people. Rebuys allow players to buy back in, ultimately adding more players to the tournament. There must be some math to see where the cutoff between +EV and -EV is.

I don't really like rebuy tournies but I'd play in one if offered - I just like to play cards.

I don't understand the logic here. If there's a tournament with 15 good players and 5 fish if I'm one of the good players and can knock out a fish I'd love to have him come back in with more money that I could win.

I also don't understand why you think a tournament with 30 people would be easier to place in than a tournament of 60 people if (as is the case with rebuys) the additional players are generally all worse than you. I want as many players/rebuys as possible of people that I expect to beat. Then I just have to concentrate on taking their money and outlasting or outplaying the better players.

[ky70]

Originally Posted by Q10 soooted

I don't understand the logic here. If there's a tournament with 15 good players and 5 fish if I'm one of the good players and can knock out a fish I'd love to have him come back in with more money that I could win.

I also don't understand why you think a tournament with 30 people would be easier to place in than a tournament of 60 people if (as is the case with rebuys) the additional players are generally all worse than you. I want as many players/rebuys as possible of people that I expect to beat. Then I just have to concentrate on taking their money and outlasting or outplaying the better players.

1) I believe that it is easier to beat 30 players once than it is to beat 30 players twice...this is poker and the "worst" player can and will beat the "best" player from time to time. 2) If the circumstance arises and I'm able to knock out another good player (better play by me, bad play by him, lucky cards, etc...) I don't want to see that guy in THIS game again. I'll either see him on the side table when I bust out or in the next full tourney game that will start up when this one is complete.

Cast your vote over here:
http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1824

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by Q10 soooted

I don't understand the logic here. If there's a tournament with 15 good players and 5 fish if I'm one of the good players and can knock out a fish I'd love to have him come back in with more money that I could win.

I also don't understand why you think a tournament with 30 people would be easier to place in than a tournament of 60 people if (as is the case with rebuys) the additional players are generally all worse than you. I want as many players/rebuys as possible of people that I expect to beat. Then I just have to concentrate on taking their money and outlasting or outplaying the better players.

i agree with phil, but although it may be harder to win, it will usually be a better EV proposition.

for example, the oft-argued "how many callers to you want with aces argument." you only want 1 caller b/c you're more likely to not lose the hand. 85% of the time you double up (vs. a random hand) and you only bust 15%. but if all 9 players call you with random hands you'll have all the chips (and prize money) 30% of the time, and bust out 70% of the time. i can't do the math right now (son on my lap), but getting 9 callers is a much better ev proposition. if you don't understand, think about it. this is foundational gambling math...

okay, he got up. let's say its the first hand and everyone has 1000 chips.

AA vs one caller: .85*1000-.14*1000= 710 (expected return)
AA vs 9 callers: .30*9000-.7*1000 = 2000 (expected return)

okeydokey?

so now, back to the rebuy issue. assuming the guys that buy back in are the worst players, you've added dead money to the pot from players that are least likely to place anyhow.

so you're less likely to win, but more likely to win more $.

another example, using phil's logic. is it easier to win a single table tournament with ivey, hellmuth, brunson, chan, greenstein, and negreanu (only 7 players total!!!), or a tournament of 100 players including you and 99 of the biggest fish ever?

the answer: you'll win more often in the sharky game (i s'pose...(like what, one in 25 times?)), but you'll win more money (by far...) at the big tourny.

discuss...

[imthatguy]

I'll try to keep it as simple as possible.

I offer a rebuy for the 1st two hours of my tournaments, to keep people from busting out early and to encourage the "Fun" aspect of the game. It's low stakes, so no one makes a stink about it.

From the eight rebuys I had last week, four of them came from my father-in-law. Anyone who rebought did not finish in the money. From my perspective, this means they weren't all that good at poker (or extremely unlucky, but I'm guessing the former).

This isn't to say they didn't have a good time (because they did) and they helped to increase the prize pool.

I like rebuys in a home environment, but that's just my house rules. Next week we're going to do a .25/.50 Limit just to mix it up, and that way the rebuy guys can continue to contribute, without the fear of busting out on one hand...

[R Deckard]

jojo, excellent math, examples, and thinking. Really makes things clear-cut.

What this all boils down to is (IMHO): Do you like playing poker primarily as a

• card game played with money
• money game played with cards
• people game played with cards and money

??

[SpeakEasy]

Originally Posted by schmag

I also only play with friends, and when I first started hosting our monthly game it was a freezeout format and it worked well. Even guys that busted early would stick around and deal, or just hang out and chat. But a few months went by and people no longer stuck around, so the game was losing it's allure.

By allowing re-buy's the people that bust out early can stick around and keep playing, I mean we only get together once a month so everyone looks forward to it so it sucks to be done in the first half hour. And while I was a little apprehensive at first, thinking it is an advantage for the re-buys, it has not worked that way. No one who has re-bought has EVER won, and only once has a re-buy made it to the final table.

So from my experience the re-buy spices up the pot for the eventual champ, and keeps the atmosphere light between friends.

This is how we do it at our home games, for these exact reasons.