[BluffaloBull]

So, after hours of agonizing over the breakdown of my upcoming set, here are the results:

T25: 320
T100: 300
T500: 200
T1000: 150
T5000: 30

This breakdown gives you the maximum flexibility to run different kinds of tournaments. With 1000 chips, you have plenty for any kind of single table event you can imagine. So the breakdown only matters if you want to hold bigger events with deeper stacks. You want to be able to accommodate smaller fields with more generous chip allotments, and bigger fields with smaller allotments (which means more making change during play).

Here are the tournaments you can run with the breakdown above:

15 player ultradeep stack, lots of chips
Starting stack: T20000
T25: 20
T100: 15
T500: 6
T1000: 5
T5000: 2
Colorup: T25, T100 and T500

20 player deep stack, lots of chips
Starting stack: T10000
T25: 12
T100: 12
T500: 7
T1000: 5
Colorup: T25, T100

25 player deep stack, OK chips
Starting stack: T10000
T25: 12
T100: 7
T500: 6
T1000: 6
Colorup: T25, T100

30 player deep stack, limited chips
Starting stack: T10000
T25: 8
T100: 8
T500: 2
T1000: 3
T5000: 1
Colorup: T25, T100

40 player mid-stack, very low chips
Starting stack: T5000
T25: 8
T100: 3
T500: 3
T1000: 3
Colorup: T25, T100

Thus, I believe, the flexibility of this distribution has been proven. And if you wonder what this distribution is called - it is the Bluffalo Distribution.



BluffaloBull

[asam2006]

I've got a set of Paulson suited mold shaped inlays with almost the same distribution except I've got 325-25's, 300-100's, 200-500's, 200-1000's and 100-5000's. When we play tournaments we allow rebuys the first few rounds for those that go bust. Rebuys are allowed for half the buy-in during the break. We use the 5000's for that.

[djexacto]

Your 30 man deep stack and 40 man mid stack have the same T10000 start value. where's the T5000 breakdown?

[BluffaloBull]

Originally Posted by djexacto

Your 30 man deep stack and 40 man mid stack have the same T10000 start value. where's the T5000 breakdown?

Ah sorry, cut 'n paste error. The chips amounted to T5000, but the post still claimed T10000. I've edited and corrected.

Would've been impressive to run a 40 player deep stacks tournament and two color ups with a 1000 chip set.

BluffaloBull

[BluffaloBull]

EDIT: I found an error in the spreadsheet that I used as a basis for the stuff below. I have updated the contents of this post accordingly.


So, I've agonized even more over chip breakdowns, and I realized that the color-up models used by the chip calculators were unrealistic. Effectively, they assume that when you color up 25s, all you use is 100s. Then when you color up 100s, all you use is 500s. If you started the tournament with 25s, 100s and 500s, now you only have 500s.

I made my own little calculator that assumed that whenever you can, you color up to the second next level. For instance, when you color up 25s, you use as many 500s as you can and then do the rest with 100s. In order to work with this, I had to develop a probabilistic model of how the chips being colored up are distributed between players. This in fact depends on how many players are left in the tournament when you do the color up - the fewer players, the more you will be able to color up to the second next level. I calibrated my model so that in the worst case (i.e. with the highest assumption for the number of remaining players) 90% of the time I would be able to do the color-up without any change being made.

I then looked at optimizing the set I published above further. I am now able to run the following number of players in the different formats:

"Ultradeep stack, lots of chips": 16 (+1)
"Deep stack, lots of chips": 21 (+1)
"Deep stack, OK chips": 24 (-1)
"Deep stack, low chips": 31 (+1)
"Mid-stack, very low chips": 40 (0)

I consider this an improvement, even though I loose one spot in one of the structures (in fact I don't, it is only the trivial question of having 3 less 500s available when coloring up 100s).

The set for this now has the following breakdown:

T25: 320
T100: 315
T500: 170
T1000: 165
T5000: 40

This result kind of makes sense - since the distance is so small between T500 and T1000, you can make do with fewer T500s. I'm going to have confidence in my own analyses, and get exactly this breakdown in my upcoming 1000-chip set.

If I get the opportunity, I'll try to do this analysis to provide optimal breakdowns for other set sizes - 300, 500, 650, 800. Let me know if you want it for another size as well.

This tool can work very well for addons to sets as well.

BB

[ontheuptick]

I would NEVER have more T25's than T100's. T100's get so much more play, T25's end up being either colored up, or a hassle betting with them later in the tourney.

[jdunford]

Originally Posted by ontheuptick

I would NEVER have more T25's than T100's. T100's get so much more play, T25's end up being either colored up, or a hassle betting with them later in the tourney.

What he said. And also, you probably don't need that many T500s and could use more T1000s (or T5000s). I find it convenient to colour-up T100s directly to T1000s because the T500s become obsolete rather quickly and you never need more than 1 of them for any sized bet (only taking 2 x T500s to make a T1000).

I don't have much else to add that's directly relevant, but here are some examples of my most successful tourney breakdowns.

I have a 1200-chip set for up to 30 player T2000s (with re-buys):

300 x T5
360 x T25
300 x T100
160 x T500
100 x T1000

We've never had more than 25 total buy-ins in a given night so far, and haven't come close to having all the T500s in play, and usually only a handful of T1000s. But as you can see, I went with more of the 2nd lowest denom than the lowest. This lets me hand out starting stacks of 10-10-7-2 for 30 players, or 15-13-11-1 for 20 players, or 20-16-15 for 15 players (if we wanted LOTS of chips on the table). And the colour-ups are smooth and easy.

For my next T5000+ tourney set for up to 16 players, I'm going with 800 chips:

200 x T25
240 x T100
120 x T500
160 x T1000
80 x T5000

This allows me to hand out 12-12-7(-5) for a T5,000(-T10,000) for 16 players with unlimited re-buys (T5,000) or 1 re-buy per person (T10,000), or 0-15-7-10-1 for a T20,000 for 16 players (freeze-out; could be NLHE or something requiring antes like HORSE; colour-up the T100s and T500s directly to T5000s by selling to the big stack and buying change as necessary), or 0-20-12-12-6 for a T50,000 for 8 players (freeze-out; usually HORSE).

[BluffaloBull]

Originally Posted by ontheuptick

I would NEVER have more T25's than T100's. T100's get so much more play, T25's end up being either colored up, or a hassle betting with them later in the tourney.

I get your point. It depends on what you want with your set, though. Realistically speaking, a lot of chips will not be needed except when you run that One Big Tournament. I want to factor in the possibility of running a two-table, T20000 tournament, and have enough starting chips to ensure that nobody needs to make change. That means I want to start each player with 20x T25. In the other end, I also want to factor in the possibility of running the biggest possible tournament with a 1000-chips set. Again, the T25s are the limiting factor.

BB

[ontheuptick]

Originally Posted by BluffaloBull

I get your point. It depends on what you want with your set, though. Realistically speaking, a lot of chips will not be needed except when you run that One Big Tournament. I want to factor in the possibility of running a two-table, T20000 tournament, and have enough starting chips to ensure that nobody needs to make change. That means I want to start each player with 20x T25. In the other end, I also want to factor in the possibility of running the biggest possible tournament with a 1000-chips set. Again, the T25s are the limiting factor.

BB

You think that now, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that after you buy the set, you'll be thinking "daaaang, I didn't need all these T25's". 20 x 25, is not necessary at all. When running all your numbers for what you think is necessary for all the different tournaments it seems like you need all those 25's, but in play, you realize they're kind of a waste.

[jdunford]

Originally Posted by ontheuptick

You think that now, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that after you buy the set, you'll be thinking "daaaang, I didn't need all these T25's". 20 x 25, is not necessary at all. When running all your numbers for what you think is necessary for all the different tournaments it seems like you need all those 25's, but in play, you realize they're kind of a waste.

And they'll get coloured up at the first break (most likely), so not only are they more than you need, but they won't even be on the table for 3/4 (or more) of the tournament.