Limit poker books for NL?

[Chipmunk]

I borrowed two min-bet hold'em books from my library, Small Stakes Hold'em (Miller, Sklansky & Malmuth) and Hold'em Poker For Advanced Players (Sklansky & Malmuth).

From what I've heard these should be very good books, but obviously written for limit while I only play NL. I figured I still might learn a lot of concepts about the game and get some fresh ideas, and I don't mind learning some limit too since I figure I might some time play it in a Casino.

Does this make any sense? Or should I be worried that I learn some bad habbits, like chasing too much since I guess the theory for the games must be quite different.

[Big Mike]

Originally Posted by Chipmunk

I borrowed two min-bet hold'em books from my library, Small Stakes Hold'em (Miller, Sklansky & Malmuth) and Hold'em Poker For Advanced Players (Sklansky & Malmuth).

From what I've heard these should be very good books, but obviously written for limit while I only play NL. I figured I still might learn a lot of concepts about the game and get some fresh ideas, and I don't mind learning some limit too since I figure I might some time play it in a Casino.

Does this make any sense? Or should I be worried that I learn some bad habbits, like chasing too much since I guess the theory for the games must be quite different.

It makes total sense. Both of those are excellent books and as long as you're careful to apply the principles correctly to NL you will be fine. SSHE will likely help you more than HFAP. Though, as you say, both are written from a limit perspective, the will teach you to think about why a certain action is correct, which I think is critical to your development as a poker player. Have you read The Theory of Poker by Sklansky? That would be a very good choice too, if your library has it.
Happy reading!

[TheMightyJim2k]

I think you need to be very careful doing this. Both of those books go through some very limit specific concepts that will really really hurt you if misapplied in NL. Even the hand ranges vary enough that you can't really use the preflop recommendations.

I personally would not read either of those books to brush up or try to help my NL game. I think SSH is a terrific book, and HPFAP is also very good, but they won't really help you much in understanding and learning correct NL theory and strategy.

I would focus on NLTAP, Phil Gordon's Little Green book (which is not too bad especially for live games), and the new PNL which I've heard is good although flawed.

[mac40k]

Limit HE books teach the pot odds, hand odds stuff that translates okay to NL, so it's good if you need help in these areas, but NL opens up a whole style of play that a Limit HE book would never cover. For instance, it is much harder to bluff in Limit because many people will call one more bet just to keep you honest. Consequently, starting hand recommendations are pretty conservative and the play style most often recommended is tight in Limit books, whereas it may be right to call or even raise with any two cards from the button in NL, something you definitely shouldn't do in Limit. In NL, you can often use position and relative stack size to move the other guy off his hand just because there's the threat of stacking him.

[Big Mike]

TMJ is right, don't use the hand charts from those books for NL.
I still say they're good books for any poker player to read. If you are a beginner check out the other books he recommends first, though.

[TheMightyJim2k]

Originally Posted by mac40k

Limit HE books teach the pot odds, hand odds stuff that translates okay to NL, so it's good if you need help in these areas, but NL opens up a whole style of play that a Limit HE book would never cover. For instance, it is much harder to bluff in Limit because many people will call one more bet just to keep you honest. Consequently, starting hand recommendations are pretty conservative and the play style most often recommended is tight in Limit books, whereas it may be right to call or even raise with any two cards from the button in NL, something you definitely shouldn't do in Limit. In NL, you can often use position and relative stack size to move the other guy off his hand just because there's the threat of stacking him.

I agree with the conclusion you come to, but I don't really agree with some of your analysis. Good limit players will be playing a much wider range of hands than is possible to profitably play in NL. Also good limit players don't really play a tight conservative style (for example I steal from the CO or button well over 40% of the time in limit).

The one big difference that I can say without going into tons of detail and theory, is that you want to play big cards in limit, and you want to play cards that can make a big hand (relatively speaking) in NL. Thus in limit you would never call a raise preflop with 76s, but you might do this in limit. However in NL you would never 3-bet someone preflop with 88 or AJs, but I do this routinely in limit.

Plus in tough aggressive limit games it is highly important that you learn how to steal and defend blinds (maybe the most important part of the game), but in NL you can probably still be a winner even if you rarely steal or defend blinds (albeit you can't win as much).

but yeah I agree with you that they are different games, and thus the books teach different concepts.

[Chipmunk]

Thanks for all the recommendations so far!

Originally Posted by TheMightyJim2k

I think you need to be very careful doing this. Both of those books go through some very limit specific concepts that will really really hurt you if misapplied in NL. Even the hand ranges vary enough that you can't really use the preflop recommendations.

I personally would not read either of those books to brush up or try to help my NL game. I think SSH is a terrific book, and HPFAP is also very good, but they won't really help you much in understanding and learning correct NL theory and strategy.

I would focus on NLTAP, Phil Gordon's Little Green book (which is not too bad especially for live games), and the new PNL which I've heard is good although flawed.

I'm not completely new to NL, and have about 20k hands behind me although from the lowest limits possible, but if you say these books won't help me in NL then I do believe you. I guess I'll still browse through them in case there are some interesting examples about poker in general.
Thanks for the recommendations! I put an reservation on NLTAP and would love to read it, but I'll doubt I'll get it soon as the waiting list was huge. PNL I'll probably buy, have heard a lot of good things about it and 2+2 has a nice offer with 5 free books when joining a poker room through them so I'll might pick it up that way. I might also buy a bunch of books from Amazon, since I really like to learn more about the game especially since I think I can apply the concepts more when I'm moving up.

Big Mike, I'm reading The Theory of Poker at the moment. I'm enjoying it very much, although I have a hard time following some of the examples as I've never played any low-games and hence have no clue about how good for instance an 8-low is. I think the examples they use from Hold'em are very easy to understand (like on the chapter about inducing and stopping bluffs).


I guess it would have made sense to tell which books I've read. So far I've read Harrington on Hold'em vol 1 & 2, the NL part of Super System II and a book written by a local pro, and I read the 2+2 forums daily.

Mostly I'm looking to find some theories which I could apply to my game in general, not really sure if I need any reading on starting hands. Although I do notice that I could use some basics too, like until recently I though that my chances of making a flush after the flop is almost 50% since I didn't think about the fact that so many of the flush cards are seen compared to the unknown cards.

[ipgyst]

If you play online and haven't done the PSO promos, you should do those. Each one will get you 9,000 or 12,000 PSO points, which translates into a $90 or $120 amazon.com gift certificate. Then you can start your own library! Don't do the "3 free books" gifts because you can get more books with the PSO points as Amazon.com gift certificates.

And don't get the dice chips either!

[dad604]

A good book for low limit NL holdem is "No Limit Holdem: a Complete Course" by Largay, Angel. It is gear towards the capped low limit buy-in games.

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by TheMightyJim2k

However in NL you would never 3-bet someone preflop with 88 or AJs, but I do this routinely in limit.

I do that in 6max NL.

I think these books would help, but only in the general sense. Do not try to apply any concepts, but maybe it'll help you with your thought process.

Despite some of the discussion in the thread about it, I think Professional No Limit is a must have NL book.